Jordan Peterson on the “Not Real Communism” Fallacy

Jordan Peterson on the “Not Real Communism” Fallacy

And if you think that you can transform what we have already now into some kind of utopia then You’re dangerous because that isn’t how the world works and utopians have been more dangerous than any other people for the last hundred years that’s for sure. Like there’s all sorts of things wrong with western society always and there always will be but compared to 85 to 90 percent of the rest of the planet this is bloody heaven and that’s why people want to move here So you can say well, it’s corrupt compared to my imaginary utopia. It’s like yeah, that’s for sure it certainly is but if your imaginary utopia was realized in hardcore politics over a thirty-year period Everyone would be out in the streets starving to death We already know that because it happened multiple times throughout the 20th century in societies that were well, they were too sophisticated as our society is now But they were plenty sophisticated for their time. And you’ll hear the neo-marxist types – this is the most annoying argument ever anyone ever makes – they say ‘Well, what happened in the soviet union that wasn’t real communism’ it’s like first: Oh, yes, it was! That’s why it also happens in China Which was a very different society but what they really mean when they say that is well, you know, that Stalin character, He wasn’t such a good guy He didn’t really know how to implement the marxist doctrines but ME, I’m pretty pure of heart and if you would have made me dictator for twenty years then the utopia would have arrived as promised. It’s like first of all if you think that, there’s something wrong with you You’re dangerous and second let’s just say for a minute that some saint did get get a hold of the tools of power and tried to implement ‘from each according to his ability to each according to his need’ And actually did that in a pure and saint like manner, here is what would happen: the next people in the revolutionary string Like Stalin would come along and stab them in their bed in the middle of the night and that would be the end of that! so Well, so there’s absolutely no excuse whatsoever for that sort of thinking and if you read Solzjenitsyn’s ‘Gulag Archipelago’ which you should do like everyone should because it’s like the definitive document of this sort of thing that emerged from the 20th century Solzjenitsyn laid out with extraordinary clarity first in his writings on Lenin and then in his writings on the soviet Union more broadly exactly how the pernicious and pathological Pathological Marxist doctrines were transformed, logically and systematically into the Sorts of laws [that] killed millions of people millions of people There were people starving so badly in the soviet union by the 1920s That they had posters telling them not to eat their children So we’ve been down that road already So what the hell are we doing? We’re going down that road again under the guise of equity Right? and equality. Well that was the doctrines that promoted those laws to begin with. Not good.

100 thoughts on “Jordan Peterson on the “Not Real Communism” Fallacy

  1. I have a copy of that poster he's talking about, from the Ukraine in the early 30's. It says, "Eating Your Children is an Act of Barbarism".

  2. So a capitalist criticizes communists when they say "not real communism" but then when you mention any problems with capitalism as a system they say "that's not capitalism that's corporatism" what an incredible hypocrite. Capitalism is trash 95% of people who criticize communism Marxism and socialism don't have any actual understanding of what these ideas mean because they let right wingers and capitalists tell them what it means instead of actually listening to Marxists describe Marxism. It's such a joke. Bad mouse productions video "capitalism death toll" is very critical of Petersen. Open minded people should watch that critique

  3. Solzhenitzyn was an anti-semitic nationalist who firmly believed in the marriage of church of state. What this guy Peterson won't tell you is that 20 million people die because of capitalism every year, which means that in the last five years capitalism has killed 100 million people- this means, as it's been around for longer than 'communism' it's killed way more people. Also, thanks to austerity more people are starving in the west now, and undernourished, and reliant on things like foodbanks (I live in the UK) which they can be turned away from as they are only allowed to get help from the foodbank a certain number of times – this is all because of capitalism as is the rest of the structural violence going on such as people not being able to defend themselves in court because of the lack of legal aid, the bedroom tax, rape crisis centres being closed down, women's refuges being closed, women having to stay with abusive partners because of precarity and the housing crisis, the increase of homelessness caused by the housing crisis and the increase of stress, depression and suicide because of all of this. This mainly effects poor people ofcourse and effects them the worst- something that wealthy professor like Peterson doesn't necessarily understand. I really don't get how or why this guy ended up being a professor- jeezus!

  4. On the topic of marxism, communism, socialism- compared to capitalism- I would very much recommend Bad Mouse Productions' videos on capitalism's death toll for a more nuanced, factual and balanced perspective on things.

  5. This guy is clearly totally unaware of anarchist-communism and libertarian socialism and the successful communist experiments that have occurred in history such as the Spanish revolution of 1936 and the groups and organisations that organise along democratic lines today. And to just totally dismiss Marx's work in it's entirety like he does is indeed just stupid arrogant and narrow minded.

  6. I've literally never heard anyone say "that wasn't real communism." I do, however, constantly see people say "that's not real/true capitalism" whenever someone points out the crushing poverty that most people under capitalism live in. So once again, Peterson is just making shit up as he goes along and projecting his own delusions onto everyone else.

  7. Communism will never be realized by humans as they are now. It is an absolutely Utopian concept in the here and now. In order for communism to work, resources (all resources – not just necessities) would have to be so unlimited that they'd be essentially infinite, and technology so advanced that everyone really would be able to be at the same level in every area (beauty, productivity, health, etc.). Capitalism, as nasty as it is, does distribute limited resources in the most rational way humans are capable of distributing them. Of course, some socialist concepts have merit, and I think society should intervene on behalf of those that cannot help themselves (i.e. the elderly, children/infants, the mentally and physically ill and disabled, and animals) but barring those groups everyone is capable of self-governance and self-sufficiency.

  8. Did you know North Korea's ruling party is named the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea"? Well, I guess democracy doesn't work and neither do republics! Close the voting booths everyone, Korea is proof it doesn't work because they have "democratic" and "republic" in their name. Back to monarchy we go!

    Eastern Europe in the 20th century wasn't communist or socialist in the same way North Korea isn't democratic. That's what so disingenuous about Jordan Peterson, he doesn't care about what these concepts actually represent. He's just an ultra-right wing propagandist who's popular because he doesn't like SJWs.

  9. JBP is a fantastic mind, but he really needs to shut the F up about religion. He sounds really stupid if he thinks Noah built an ark and saved all the animals….

  10. Blah Blah Blah. First, stop barking at people, it's weird. Second, you are just strawmanning the argument that any reasonable person would make, which is to say, "of course people want to come to America, that doesn't mean we can't try to make it better – capitalism has a tendency to force a substantial portion of its population into miserable jobs they hate and/or wage slavery. In a future society, it would be nice to move toward a place where more people can be happy and fulfilled. Yes, it sounds utopian when you STATE THE FUCKING IDEA while fully realizing that it would take some time and effort to make things better – but the point is that we should try to talk about HOW we might create better society so we might have some ideas on HOW to begin doing it. (imagine I was barking like Peterson whenever I used caps).

  11. > That wasn't "Reaal" capitalism
    > That wasn't "reaaal" Christianity
    > That wasn't "Reaaal" conservatism
    > That wasn't the reaaaaal crusade
    > That wasn't reaaal fascism

  12. People who believe in or argue against the idea that Soviet Union collapsed because its communism wasn't communist enough, or wasn't real, are creating and fighting a straw man. The problem was the same that it was eons ago, and remains the same – investing money into dismantling the local authority, swapping local government with cuckoo-egg politicians, creating upheaval and division among local population. "Everybody wants to move here" because we have been thriving at the cost of other countries, at the cost of african food, asian freedom, south american health and so on. We have pillaged countries, Soviet Russia being one of them. We have victims of our militaristic and groping regime to thank for our quality of life, not our beloved intellogent selves.

  13. I showed this to an anti-capitalist on twitter who was saying Stalinism and Maoism weren't real communism.
    He said he agreed with Peterson.
    Went on to continue saying Capitalism was evil and Communism doesn't require authoritarianism to implement.
    Now I am confused that this person is able to breathe in and out, let alone use twitter.

  14. Abortions got so bad in the Soviet Union, that many women, by the 30s, had as many as 20 abortions or more, that Stalin had to put a stop to it, or at least a temporary freeze so that women would produce more people. Because at the rate at which abortions were happening, within one or two generations, the population would be critically reduced, and it was already on life-support by the 1940s due to Stalin's purges of the Kulaks and others who weren't going along with the program fast enough.

  15. Also if you believe the soviets and mao were not real communism then you are free to implement any VOLUNTARY communism you like. Clearly your idea can work in a multi-diverse world. so go right ahead and implement a voluntary communism.

    Any system that forces capitulation for it to work must be immoral.

  16. The famine that happened in the 1920s started before the Soviet Union existed and was a result of bad weather and the destruction caused by WW1, numerous revolutions, and the Russian civil war. Its the equivalent of the Seven Years war, American revolutionary war, and the American civil war happening one right after the other

  17. I'll continue using that argument as long as "capitalism isn't real capitalism because monopolistic corporations have seized control over the system." Is a valid argument when I point out the flaws with capitalism.

  18. That response from Peterson to "not real communism" goes so deep, took me a couple times or three running into it, here and in other clips, to identify how genuinely profound it is, for the individual.

  19. What the hell happened to the Democratic Party?  Democrats used to be blue collar patriots who asked for opportunity and fair capitalism.  Nowadays, they are unemployed degenerates who whine constantly for free handouts.  I'm tired of having to keep an eye on these fucking traitors.  Subversive speech like lobbying for communism should be illegal with a punishment of death by hanging.

  20. I completely disagree with Peterson on this point, he seems to take a strange approach to the rationality behind saying "that wasn't true communism". You can criticize the way something was implemented in a country as the true version of that ideology, that's got NOTHING to do with me either agreeing with that system in the first place, or thinking I know of a better way to install it within a society. Simply that the version that resulted was not what people like Marx and Engels defined theoretically as 'communism'.

  21. "they weren't as sophisticated as our society but they were plenty sophisticated for the time"… the sophistication of our current society is what makes utopians more viable. Comparing it to societies that didn't have equivalent control over scarcity is dishonest.

  22. Western society is a "bloody heaven" compared to the rest of the planet because we literally spent the last centuries horribly exploiting and raping the rest of the planet…

  23. What a joke…so the whole 'fallacy' of this video is: A wannabe dictator will somehow always automatically overthrow socialist democracy, but i don't have any logic to back that up, other than 'because i said so'?

    Never mind the fact, not ONE of these alleged leaders/nations allowed 'DEMOCRATIC control of industry/society' in the first place…i mean, name me a 'socialist' nation that ever ONCE held a legitimate election?!

    Let's see a socialist society that holds REAL elections…THEN we can accurately say whether socialism works or not. If a dictatorship DOES somehow form out of said elections (though i don't see any logical reason why it would), then this guy would have a point…but we've NEVER seen said elections, so his point is baseless speculation.

    Shills like this guy (in the video) are just doing their damndest to keep the capitalist status quo floating (because he and/or his masters don't want to give up their position of wealthy privilege), simple as that.

  24. JP is such a bag of wind. The Hutterites have been around for some 400 years. Christian communists. In fact, nearly all monasteries have operated on a communistic system since the early church. Read Acts 2 & 4. This guy is an ideologue– those are the most dangerous jerks around, not the blessed Utopians. We should thank God every day that these idealists exist to confront & denounce demagogues like this Peterson nobody.

  25. + Stravo Lukos
    Capitalist spokesman … too funny, you say that if its a bad thing Marxist man.
    Being called a Marxist, Socialist, communist is worse than being called A Trump Supporter.

    Its funny that all the anti- capitalists that hates capitalism are the ones that cannot make it in a market economy that is why people like you hate capitalism.

    If you have anything intelligent to say critiquing her precious Crapitalism, she litters your posts like a pile of dog shit so that others will avoid it.



  27. Utopia doesn't necessarily mean communism. And all governments are forms of communism. "Do as I say or you will be thrown in a cage"

  28. Don't agree with this guy just cause he's smarter and older in a suit. Yes, America is better than a lot of countries but we are still all modern day slaves. We are not free. There are millions of ridiculous rules. We are so far from being free.

  29. + Stravo Lukos,
    You're not intelligent or even posses a modicum of intelligence to even understand the worst that I have, sending my best would be like asking a peewee football player who plays linebacker to tackle Tom Brady in his prime.

    Instead of sitting in your mom's basement and stinking up the cushions you should try getting out in the real world and seeing what is out there, you might be shocked Marxist man.

  30. +Stravo Lukos

    It sounds like you're getting upset Marxist man, so youve been to 5 continents, okay and that means what? I take it was because you were in the Military, being on 5 continents on a military base doesn't really count, well I guess if you can leave the base for some fun in the town I guess.

    So you've worked, and I own a business 19 years and counting after a 4 year stint at Goldman Sachs., you have a pension and I have financial security and I'm not even 50, 5 more years before I hit 50 .

    I wont even tell you where Ive been because its irrelevant and it might turn into a pissing contest , lets just say Capitalism has allowed me to go scuba diving in some of the best places in the world, including the maldives.

    You're nothing about a marxist Troll, I don't care if you don't like capitalism but you haven't said a damn thing why you hate it or hate Dr. Peterson.

    I bet if we said the same things about Marx, Engels, Mao you would have a bird.

  31. YOUTUBE prides itself on being a platform for respectable comment, yet allows turds to pile up on its posts. That means YouTube is full of the wind & unreliable. It does not moderate, but enables trolls to post threats & harassment– & that's not freedom of speech. It's agitation.

    Two of the worst offenders here post as Will Nitschke, who knows no social boundaries or respect, & randomguy from nowhere, a jerk who openly stated he'd like to kill me for my beliefs. These two will twist your statements & lie in order to provoke you– an asinine & trollish kind of conduct that YouTube evidently sees fit to encourage & protect. I disagree.

    First of all, know that these two turds are cowards. They won't face a 67 year old man although I've invited them several times to back up their big talk. I don't pull punches or hide behind a pseudonym. I live in Spokane, Washington, & I fear no one. I've listed my e-ddress & I mean what I say. Call my bluff. Secondly, these twin mouth breathers are harassing everyone who doesn't conform entirely to an alt-right, laissez faire doctrine of inhumanity & endless growth– you know, cancer. Report these bastards of hell to YouTube & let's see if YT does its job. Or maybe you'd like to hunt the bastards down & harvest them, in good Crapitalist style, for their valuable assets (i.e. lungs, livers, kidneys, etc.) I couldn't care less at this point. May they reap what they so richly deserve.

    How about it, YouTube?! Are you going to do your job?

  32. For those who can read & are not trolls, I suggest you read about communes that have lasted & evolved from the 60s to this day. I live near one called, Tolstoy Farm. There are many others. The longest lasting communist/communalist group is the Hutterites Community. There are many Hutterites scattered in large colonies across North America & the rest of the globe. I'm not proselyting for their religion; however, their lifestyles can offer ideas as to how a cooperative community operates. After all, they have over 400 yrs. of experience at it. You can read about these & other expressions of utopian ideas put to action in Kenneth Rexroth's free online book, COMMUNALISM.

    The world needs experimental social groups, unlike the flippant antagonism of Dr. Dumdum Peterson or Willa Nitwitschke (whom I've blocked– & I suggest you do the same; she is pure narcissism & filth), because Crapitalism is destroying our lives & the environment upon which we depend. If we conform to Peterson's casuistry, we'll simply deny one of our finest facets– our imagination! We cannot continue our economic growth in a closed system. That's a cancer, & a malignant one at that. Crapitalism is a formula, period. It has no values other than profit & loss. We must supply the values; however, that is difficult when faced w/ a majority population that operates on the idea that financial systems are sacrosanct & not subject to human(e) intervention. In Crapitalist systems, we plunk in variables, it spits out results. Now, if we were immortals possessed of infinite or near-so intelligence & wisdom, maybe that would work out well for us. Instead, mankind proves himself incapable of cooperative behaviors & ventures unless he decides there is no better way to benefit himself & those he loves. This is the reason we have govts. & militaries. Man is not a noble creature– but he can be. Fallible, yes, but capable of far higher than rapacity & endless wars. We have seen this over & over from prehistoric times to the present. For no reason other than altruism, people sacrifice their own well-being & wealth for the sake of others.

    Do you have any ideas on how to create a utopian society? I'd love to read them. I will not flame or insult unless I'm flamed for no good reason. Like for like.

  33. Peterson is a dangerous idiot. Chomsky points out that the workers never controlled the means of production in the USSR and China. Democratic socialism is the cure for state communism. There's lots of examples around the world of well functioning democratic socialism.

  34. I don't know who's stupider, Peterson or the Red Commie shills posting here. They all belong on an island somewhere where they can piss & hiss at each other forever. Better yet, nuke 'em & declare it a world day of celebration.

  35. I want to find the poster that encourages people not to eat their children. Not saying I disbelieve Dr. Peterson but I haven't been able to find it anywhere on google. I found one lead on a top ten list on that mentioned such posters existence in the soviet engineered famine in Ukraine of Holodomor where the posters said quote in English "to eat your own children is a barbarian act". The statement as a link before it but it's to a daily herald article that's been talked down. Using the wayback machine I read the article only to get another link this time to a PDF with no picture of a poster in it (to view the actual PDF you have to take the PDF link and copy and paste it outside the wayback machine.) Can anyone find this poster? I just want to see it, I fear suppression but I suspect disinterest has hidden it from the public domain.

  36. He says the utopia was manifested and then says there was people starving on the streets. I'm pretty sure that wasn't part of the utopia on peoples heads. Why is he calling that a utopia? Is it possible that he has a limited understanding of marxism? Is it possible that he uses fallacious thinking?

  37. + death to the Dictators.

    You are wrong , capitalism is working for most of the 45 million people below the poverty line, many of them received Earned tax credit in America, you cant say the same for citizens in Venezuela or Haiti? it may not be working for them directly but indirectly they are benefiting from it.

    The people who are living below the poverty line would rather live in america vs any other third world nation or second world nation where poverty is rampant.

    I don't agree that workers are giving up a significant portion of their labour to their wealthier employer, workers are paid by their value to their employer , yes it is a symbiotic relation but nothing happens without the consumer and demand.

    Workers are not forced to work for their employer like the serfs and slaves in the 1800's.
    Today at least in North America they are free to work for whoever they want to work providing they have the skill set.

    I think what you're trying to say is a lot of the folks in the bottom end of the economic scale don't have the skill set to compete for higher paying jobs, if that is what you're trying to say then I agree and that is one of the flaws of capitalism.

    If one doesn't have skills to compete they can get lost in the shuffle but they can still benefit from assistance or charity.

  38. So the only reason for communism I heard not working was corrupt people. That's inherently the problem when implementing communism. It doesn't mean communism doesn't work or is flawed, it means humans are flawed and is a matter that we need to over come, not a matter that we should cower in fear over. You can either be scared and lazy following this idea or you can be revolutionary and change the way the world thinks. It's been done before and it can be done again. The weak wont understand but for the preservation of the human race, the strong will understand completely. Certain measures must be implemented for our survival. Risk 100 to save 1000.

  39. So he basicly only said "we already tried this" without giving any explaination what would be fundamentally wrong with communism, and all you guys applaud because it's him saying it.

  40. It is shocking that someone who I deem to be able to be quite intelligent is so fantastically uneducated about a topic he rambles on and on about.
    Not real communism is of course not an accurate phrase, it used by Libertarian Socialists mostly, to separate themselves from Authoritarian Socialists, NOT HARD TO GET.

  41. 1. Capitalism kills more people every five years than communism ever did. 2. A communist society is a society without money, class, or state. The USSR and China had all three. Therefore they were not communist. 3. If socialism is so bad how come Cuba has a higher life expectancy, literacy rate, unemployment rate, and environmental sustainability index than the US despite it being under embargo for 50 years. 4. How are we going to solve climate change, which was caused by unregulated capitalism and which will lead to the deaths of millions of people in the 21st century?

  42. Cuba, Japan, Laos, Vietnam, N Korea, China, Somalia,Columbia, Russia , the soviet included country’s, Kenya for like 10 secs and many more where are they? Hmm a economic lying shit hole. Wow Japan we helped them and they got the result of feminism because of communism.And that’s real communism.

  43. Does he apply the same "logic" to Christianity? "Real" Christianity is The Inquisition and the Crusades and collaborating with Stalin and later with Putin. Christianity is also Dr. King. But that's too paradoxical for Peterson. As to The Gulag Archipelago it's curious that Peterson leaves out all of Solzhenitsyn's anti-Semitism which of course undermines claims to the book being "accurate" vs flawed but useful which of course is too complex for Peterson's binary (self) righteousness.

  44. Oh, Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago, that fiction book written by the anti-semite fascist/nazi sympathizer, "the definitive document of this sort of thing" hahahahaha.
    The same guy who said 60 million people, or half the Russian population, died in prison!!! Clearly a reliable source, clearly the definitive document of this sort of thing

    Also interesting to note that Solzhenitsyn was imprisioned for 6 years for spreading anti-communist and nazi propaganda (and he didn't die). If he was in the US though, spreading anti-capitalist and communist propaganda, he'd get executed in no time

  45. It is funny how people who argue either for or against a fairer more utopian society only use Socialism or Communism as the ideologies.

    What about this:

    – Money is abolished and is instead replaced with a credit system

    – The credit system will have different tiers from say 10,000 to 50,000 per year

    – Each citizen will fall in to a specific tier depending on how they contribute to society.

    – If they do nothing they will get the lowest amount (10,000 per year). It will be enough to live comfortably but they WILL NOT be able to afford the highest end phone, go on expensive holidays, or eat out multiple times per week. This will basically be a Universal Basic Income amount. Every man, woman and child who does not work or study would get this. These people may not work but they will likely find hobbies in the various community centres which would pop up.

    – Those who study in college or university will get 15,000 credits per year

    – Those who have more demanding jobs or jobs which require much more skill will get more credits depending on what tier they fall in to.

    – People can start businesses which they will 100% own and they can set the prices accordingly. However, they can never take a larger wage than 50,000 credits.

    – Thier business profits (after all expenditures such as staff wages, inventory, etc…) will never be able to exceed 100,000 credits.

    – Any credits which exceed this amount will need to be redistributed back in to the economy in some way. (So for example, Apple could perhaps give they lowest paid staff some bonuses, or give money to charities, or set up some social enterprises which help communities)

    – Some of the fundamental requirements to live will be state owned; Housing, energy, public transport, water, internet.

    – To avoid the absurd house prices and ridiculous rents we are seeing today, all property will be state owned. However, each individual, couple, or family will be issued with a document allowing them to stay at the property for their whole life. They just won't be able to buy it and then rent it or sell it for extortionate amounts, which is what is happening now.

    – They will pay rent in accordance with how much the house hold income is. The more credits they get the larger home they can afford.
    – Rent will always be balanced so nobody will pay more than 1 quarter of their income on rent.

    – By law, nobody will work more than 7 hours per day, 6 days a week. and the minimum wage will be whatever credit tier they job falls in to.

    – Regarding the credit system. I think the only time friction would arise is when SOME of those who do not work end up being anti social. We have all seen videos of absolutely degenerates steeling or thugs punching random strangers in the street. So a strict policy on anti social behaviour would be enacted. Those deemed unacceptable for civilised society because of anti social behaviour would be placed in a rehabilitation centre. This is NOT. prison as such, although they will not be allowed to leave until they are deemed to be reformed. Here they would receive psychological treatment and given options on what to do with heir lives (study or pursue a career). Once they have been assessed after xx years (depending on their sentence) they will either be deemed unfit for society or fit for society and will be released or be detained indefinitely until they are deemed fit for society.

    – There would be a 3 strike system. Each offender will have been given ample chances within the constructs on the rehabilitation system. So once they offend a third time, they will be detained in an actual prison where they will remain. They will be given a probation hearing every 10 years where they will be psychologically assed.

    – With this system, crime would be drastically reduced.

    There are many more issues to address but this is the basic idea of how a society could work.

    And please, before you comment, try to be constructive. I am merely offering a blueprint which can be built upon. Try and correct any flaws you see in my ideas rather than say 'IT WILL NEVER WORK YOU LIBTARD' as so many people love to do.

  46. Why would a communist or a socialist would want to be a dictator if the very essence of these systems is giving equal rights and removing hierarchy in the government or the workplace?… He assumes or thinks there has to be a dictator in these economies. Ironically, central planning by a few at the expense of many is the very essence of capitalism whether it's in government or at an enterprise… But interestingly enough, he doesn't bring that up. The USSR and Cuba and North Korea are all examples of State Capitalism where all it did was reallocated all the means of production to the state and eliminated private ownership. That's not socialism or communism. Has he read Capital Vol. 1? It seems he's in the business of selling books and events with a rhetoric that makes, yes, unsure and uninformed people feel good about the current situation they're in and not look into why they are depraved from the lives they can fully live. He says these things because he knows there's a market for him for his own well being. Yet he stays in Canada… Why doesn't he move down to the US and really walk his talk.

  47. Very poorly argued. Saying "That wasn't real communism." doesn't amount to "But I know how it could have been.", just like pointing out that someone failed to assemble a bike doesn't mean you know all the necessary steps to assembling a bike. You can judge the end product without knowing the procedure that gets you to the right thing.

    This is what cultural critics do all the time when they review art, food, or anything, really.

  48. Jordan Petersom is a shill, he's on the payroll for corps… No one thinks communism is a utopia but it may be better that capitalism as we have lived in more communist societies for longer. Also it wasn't really socialism in Russia ya swat, they claimed to be democratic as well, are we now going to say democracy doesn't work as well?

  49. This is insane. If anyone is tying to sell you a quick fix utopia if you just submit to their dictator, that’s obviously a trap and not going to a working government. Just abandoning the idea that society can progress to a better system then just survival of the fittest tho, well that’s seems a little foolish. I mean, clearly no modern supporter of some level of the vast spectrum of socialisms would be in support of ruthless dictators, it’s kind of the antithesis of the ideology. So yeah, these equivalencies between communist China or Russia and modern day left goals and ideology is very illogical. Just do some research on some of the things those governments did, obviously this is not what a modern democratic representative socialist society would look like.

  50. Brilliant I am having an argument with a communist now, I shall memorise this 🙂 Thanks Peter you a good egg

  51. Lol the only reason people are moving to western countries is that they are more developed than others and therefore have already solved a lot of their social issues through a long period of struggle.
    All the western capitalist countries had industrial revolution prior to most other countries, and most of them relied on slavery, imperialism and colonialism, which enslaved/murdered millions of people, to get rich. But of course this is such a wonderful system isn't it? So wonderful that merely 80 years ago American government were outlawing collective bargaining, 50 years ago non-white minorities were legally discriminated. And since WWII, USA has been the most aggresive country in the world accounting for more direct or proxy warfare globally than any other countries.
    But I guess one would argue this is "not real capitalism" right?

  52. Wish people like Jordan Peterson would realise that some of the earliest and strongest critiques of the Bolsheviks were written by socialists who viewed the Bolsheviks as a counter revolutionary force that destroyed socialism in Russia in favour of state capitalism.

  53. A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless and stateless, implying the end of the exploitation of labour. The Soviet Union was nothing like this at all.

  54. What it is important to realise about socialism and marxism is that 21st century socialism is very different from the so-called 'socialism' of the USSR and Maoist China and this is something that Peterson just doesn't grasp. So what do I mean? Basically the 'socialism' of the USSR and Maoist China was based on A.) Doing away with private ownership, although the people never owned the means of production at any point, and B.) State planning instead of free markets. If you study Marx you would know that there is nothing in Marx's work that promotes those two things. What Marx was concerned with is what happens with and in the workplace. According to Richard D. Wolffe, a man who has studied economics for decades, modern socialism is going in a different direction to the experiments of the USSR and Maoist China etc but it is still inspired by Marx.

    Marx explains how surplus value is produced, it is produced by the workers and rightfully belongs to them but it goes to the employers, the workers are ripped off. Modern socialism contends that the workers get their surplus value (instead of it going to a minority of unelected bosses) and democratically control their workplace and their society so that the surplus value can be spent on things the workers need, it can be put to good use instead of just being profit for a capitalist. That, for Wolffe and others, is what socialism today is and he believes that it should have been no surprise that experiments such as the soviet union failed, just as there were pockets of failed capitalism before capitalism really took off around the world and became the dominant system.

    Now I am not sure that I am entirely convinced that this version of socialism (the worker's co-op system) is completely the right way to go (which does not mean that I favour the totalitarian route that the USSR took). Why? Because critics of the co-ops hold that because they have to exist within a capitalist framework, they inevitably end up as just another exploitative part of the capitalist system that rips the workers off and treats them badly. But even if this is the case I think that Wolffe is on to something when he explains how workers are denied surplus value and a real say, real power in their workplaces and in society (and therefore their individualism), so his basic Marxist analysis stands up for me and unlike people like Peterson he is obviously someone who understands Marx.

  55. It’s funny because Peterson says that those who believe in the doctrines of Christianity but do not act as such are “no true Scotsman”. Why can’t this same logic apply to communism? Btw Peterson’s definition of religion is what you act.

  56. These right wingers like Jordan Peterson are as bad as the SJWs they rally against. Give them power and they'd do the same shit, like Peterson's "anyone who says Communism can work should be punched so hard it'll knock them out!" Yeah Peterson is a champion for freedom of speech alright! Also how is this "not real communism" argument any different to the likes of Sargon and PJW who dismiss the far greater horrors carried by capitalism as "they just weren't doing capitalism right, it was corprotism?" Its exactly the same! Communism and Capitalism are religions to these people. They won't acknowledge any faults in them so there's never any actual proper critique of both. Just "oh your ideology killed more people, conservatives are sexier, science shows it." They're all as bad as each in trapping us in this petty, tribal bullshit.

  57. Is is possible for a doctrine to be formed that pulls apart power and wealth equally instead of concentrating it into a couple of hands?

  58. Dreamers are not dangerous. And whitout the circumstances (e.g. WAR) there would have been no revolution. If you are against communism prevent it simply by good wages, good working conditions, peace seeking politics. Continue like the cold war wasn't over and real-existing capitalism still has to prove to ve the better option and no revolution or alike will take place. Help the Greeks and so on…

  59. Communism has never been tested. No Communist says the not real Communism statement the only people who say it are liberals and right leaning people as a way to discredit Communism

  60. "This is the most annoying argument people make" yea well funny how virtually no one actually makes it, most Marxists see the USSR, PRC and other Marxist Leninist states as great examples of nations that increased their citizens life expectancy, increased GDP and daily calorie consumption per capita, gave their citizens access to healthcare, education and housing and turned agrarian peasant economies into fully industrialized states

  61. He has a good point, but I do believe he's forgetting about tye neccesity for progress. I dont mean that as in losing your culture or heritage, but an end game for capitalism was and always has been that there would be a global market. Globalism is the end game for any ism.
    I like Mr. Peterson, but his opinions really arent that novel. Except that he managed to get alot of money out of this public tension. Ill forgive him for that over people like PJW and Sargon. While I dont agree with a fair sum of what he says, I do listen to his stuff because its an interesting point.
    "Clean your room" is a great slogan, but I think some people on the internet think he's only talking to naive college kids, while they themselves should also get a foot up their ass.

  62. Communism in Russia failed because the elite hijacked it and established a "dictatorship of the proletariat". Any smart person would think thats a load of bullshit. The people wanted communisms fascism is what Russias elite gave them.
    "Not real communism" is about that.
    If you read 1984, Orwell makes the exact same statement. The man was a Socialist himself that knew all too much about the elites potential to use communism as a lie to install rigid, classist totalitarianism.
    In the end, some people really, really want their favorite enemy, real or fake, to have the name they were brought up with to hate.
    Confirmation biass.

  63. Peterson is actually admitting that the Soviet and Maoists regimes were not real communism. What he is really arguing is that any attempt to implement real communism will inevitably lead to such regimes, to totalitarianism. Let's grant this is true. I tend to agree. That still doesn't mean that anyone who says "that's not real communism" is an arrogant intellectual who envisions himself as a benign tyrant. There were plenty of workers and peasants in Russia and China who had had experience of village control over agricultural production or worker control over factories who had reason based on their own immediate experience to think "real communism" was possible. Okay, they were wrong about that as a possibility on the national level. But that doesn't mean they were arrogant and secretly seeking power for themselves or acting merely out of ressentiment. They may have been sincerely hoping for a better life informed by their own experience of a more communal form of living. And these groups did in fact oppose the early moves towards totalitarianism, saying, hey, that's not real communism. Maybe naive, but isn't Peterson engaged in a kind of strong-arm ad hominem attack on any such arguments by suggesting such claims are always detestable and inauthentic? And can we be absolutely sure that some kind of free association of producers will always result in totalitarianism or that any form of socialism is a slippery slope towards the Gulag? Surely it is worth keeping an open mind about egalitarian alternatives such as John Rawls's idea of property-owning democracy or various forms of social democracy. Are we to dismiss all such ideas on the grounds that they are naive and incipiently totalitarian since they imply that previous forms of socialism were "not real socialism"? If that's so, then Peterson's argument amounts essentially to silencing all debate about the existing social order. As much as he is an advocate of free speech this whole argument suggests a kind of ad hominem, slippery slope rhetorical ploy to silence debate.

  64. Complete BS. Real Communism has NEVER been allowed by the Richest to even be given a chance to develop.To have Real Communism YOU ALSO HAVE TO DECENTRALIZE POWER- ITS ALSO ABOUT THE REDISTRIBUTION OF POWER OUT FROM THE CENTRE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO LOCAL LEVELS TO BE RUN BY LOCAL CITIZENS AS MUCH AS THEY WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN THE RUNNING OF IT- LETS FACE IT WE ALL KNOW IT-THE UNELECTED RICHEST WHO ARE UNELECTED TO HAVE THAT KIND OF POWER HOLD THE MOST POWER and control most politicians like puppets.They won most media which keeps enough sheep onside believing all their lies.They never tell the public about "THE REDISTRIBUTION OF POLITICAL POWER" principle which is a key part of Real Communism, just tell them about the one complete lie about the complete redistribution of wealth that they say has to happen principle just cos its in their interests to say that one through most media that the Unelected Richest Own too- AND ILL JUST ASK THIS ONE SIMPLE QUESTION,WE ALL KNOW THEY FINANCED HITLER TO SAVE THEIR CAPITALIST WORLDWIDE ECONOMY FOR THEMSELVES SO WHY WOULDNT THEY ALSO HAVE FINANCED "FAKE NOT REAL COMMUNISTS" IN COMING TO POWER TOO- TO MAKE SURE REAL COMMUNISM WAS NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO DEVELOP- YOU KNOW THEYD DO ANYTHING TO HOLD ONTO POWER SO AS THEY CAN KEEP MAKING MORE UNECESSARY WEALTH FOR THEMSELVES ?

  65. Imagine thinking it was communism just because people starved XD. This professor is an idiot. Learn some history and some theory bud you are nothing more than a right propagandist that lies. I wish he could explain what made them communist outside of Symbolism XD. what a joke

  66. I can't believe the flippancy some people have admitting that they are communists. The cognitive dissonance is surreal. It's like hearing someone say "yeah I'm a nazi, so what?" and the fact that they don't realize that is truly terrifying.

  67. When people say "Well that wasn't real Communism." what they really mean is "Trust me, if I was in power I wouldn't abuse it."

  68. So the main argument is the following: if some saint leader implemented real socialism, then everything would be ideal, until a very bad dictator would seize power. Is that really the argument against socialism ever working? Not very convincing.

  69. “To act on the belief that we possess the knowledge and the power which enable us to shape the processes of society entirely to our liking, knowledge which in fact we do not possess, is likely to make us do much harm.”

    ― Friedrich Hayek

  70. This idea is propagated by people that do not actually KNOW the history of 20th century communism. It WAS real communism because they adhered strictly to the principles laid down by Marx. Anybody at the top of the food chain having dissenting opinions suffered the consequences, for example Mao chastised Khrushchov for not adhering to "scientific communism" hard enough. Those lower than the fat cats got punished more severely. Look it up, don't expect somebody on the internet to explain it to you. This or that exception to this general trend, for example "communism with a human face", "gulash communism" and the like are similar to the different blends of a religion, say Christianity. Every denomination claims adherence to the true and original creed, while the actual deeds and character of the denominations can be as different as night and day.

    Why is this so? Because anything coming out of the Platonic idea of a world of Forms, be it religion, totalitarianism or other, is, in it's core, as contrary to human nature as it is appealing to it. It sounds good for all to be equal, it sounds good for all men to be brothers. This creates the illusion of a moral highground. But the actual DOING of this causes unimaginable pain and suffering. The orders of communism or religion are not only hard, but impossible to fulfill. This produces the dissenting in ideas. It was not real communism/Christianity/religion etc. because the thing in itself was never real and therefore never pure. NOR COULD IT BE. Forms are ideal and bringing them into the real world means you have to have a priestly class or aparatchicks to speak for the phantasm. How many Christians know how many sects there were in Christianity from the very start? How much was later written back into canon? That we have no actual Bible manuscripts before the 9th century, that the canon itself was different? It is the same with how communists themselves rewrote their own history many times. And westerners read this or that account and few have the wits to compare them and find the inconsistencies. Most people do not READ!

    And it was chilling to read about the "men with cool heads and flaming hearts". It was chilling to read how systematically, logically, these men – they were mostly male – debated about how to implement communism, how to shoot, maim and torture, how they planned to reach the utopia over the bodies of millions. They didn't even feel the need to be moral, as some Spanisg inquisitor would perhaps feel. They were doing it for the utopia and ultimately for themselves and their cliques. The closest friend of Mao was the only one who dared to tell the Supreme Leader that the Chinese are eating each other, that the mass beatings did not produce hidden grain and that there was no hidden grain. These leaders proceeded to strangle their societies, to kill them scientifically, logically and without room for mistakes, as a professional dentist kills a tooth nerve. Chilling.

    This is not a critique of modern pro-Marxists or religious people. I am not mentioning lazyness, their morals, nor the things they disregard as proof, like millions of dead, as assertation that these contemporary people are immoral. The Forms sing their siren song and many are inclined to listen, good and bad. Such as their consequent actions come when the mind get subjugated by one of it's own ideas, which happens to be at odds with objective reality. People are as different as anything, there were brilliant minds concerned with the torture of heretics just as there were vile brutes knowing exactly what communism is and what they are doing to their victims. But it's high time to grow out of this trap.

    Capitalism is the eternal defendant. No matter how prudent a worker, no matter how many goods it creates, it is forever dragged back to kangoroo courts to explain itself. The last verdict is never conclusive, there has to forever be a new meeting, new arguments, this or that. But it never gets a death sentence. Oh no. Because somebody has to feed the jury, produce the gavel, do carpentry, renovate the court room and fix the air conditioning. On and on it goes. As far as social systems are like human beings, this is a tragic and inspiring story for brighter minds.

  71. Socialism and communism are utopian ideologies. To really work they NEED utopian people. Sadly ( 🙂 ) vast majority of people are NOT utopian people :-))))

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